The Art of Climbing: On Limits, Risk Management, and Freedom | 5Y Capital Tavern Vol. 21 [Podcast]

五源资本·October 7, 2024

The upward force.

Climbing is often used as a metaphor for entrepreneurship or life itself — about advancing and retreating, danger and the unknown, fear and courage. It demands a balance of technical skill, physical fitness, and mental fortitude, managing risk amid uncertainty like some kind of imaginative art form. Among climbers, free climbing or alpine-style climbing represents an even more extreme, niche community. To many, the stories of alpine climbers might read like chronicles of madness, as they continually push the limits of human survival in harsh environments.

Exceptional climbers tend to be excellent risk managers. On the route, you never truly know what might happen on the way up or the way down. In this episode of 5Y Tavern, we invited a cross-disciplinary guest — free climber Xinyue Cao ("Big Pit") — to share his story. We hope to explore: what does it mean to scale peaks no human has ever touched? How do climbers balance pushing limits with making sound decisions?

[Guest]

Xinyue Cao ("Big Pit") — Free climber, Arc'teryx-sponsored athlete, EnjoyClimbing gold-level coach, first ascents on multiple unclimbed peaks

[What You'll Hear]

02:52 What is alpine-style climbing, and how it differs from Himalayan-style climbing
06:13 Climbing constantly involves risks — it's all about how you face them
08:46 How to make rational, accurate decisions at your physical limit
12:45 The most critical quality in alpine-style climbing: risk control
17:07 Facing fear — not born brave, and certainly no reckless fool
23:28 Climbing continually shapes character; you'll always discover what you're lacking at different moments
25:20 First ascent of Kokodak I, a "neighboring peak" of Muztagh Ata, and falling into a crevasse during descent
33:36 Why climb? It's not just George Mallory's "Because it's there"
37:12 What looks like madness to others is actually the product of painstaking, prolonged practice

[Excerpts]

On climbing basics: What is alpine-style climbing, and how does it differ from Himalayan-style?

Himalayan-style climbing typically involves large teams with extensive logistical support, including supply transport and camp construction. It often uses large amounts of fixed ropes and route markers, and employs high-altitude workers to assist with the climb.

Alpine-style climbing emphasizes traveling light and fast, minimizing time spent in the mountains to reduce risk and improve efficiency. It focuses on small teams or individuals, stressing self-reliance — climbers must depend on their own experience, knowledge, and skills to complete the ascent. This demands high technical proficiency and independent judgment, with climbers performing technical operations and making decisions on their own.

5Y Tavern: Alpine-style climbing seems to demand exceptional all-around qualities — patience, discipline, optimism, a high tolerance for suffering, and the ability to coordinate within a small team under extreme discomfort, plus rapidly acquiring many skills. For you, which technical abilities or qualities are most critical?

Xinyue Cao: I believe the most critical quality for alpine-style climbing is risk control. You need to assess risks at every moment — what hazards does this route present, and how do you avoid them? Should you start early in stable weather, or bypass this path entirely? These are all things you need to manage. Patience, perseverance, and discipline are part of this too.

Patience is especially crucial because the more impatient you are, the higher the risk. You might place inadequate protection or put yourself in a dead-end situation. Communication and harmony with your partner are also part of risk management. If your partner's mental state collapses or becomes unstable, that significantly increases your risk. You need to ensure someone stays calm. If someone panics, you need to find a way to calm them down and consider retreating, because if that state persists, it becomes extremely dangerous.

5Y Tavern: How do you view risk in climbing? Have you encountered truly dangerous moments?

Xinyue Cao: Risk is unavoidable. You can only try to prevent it through various means, minimize it — but you can never eliminate it entirely. Most of the time, you can sense genuinely frightening risks. On my first climb, I didn't really understand altitude sickness. When I felt terrible, I thought I should push through, that I shouldn't retreat just because things got hard. I forced myself to summit and ended up nearly unconscious.

Another time, in 2016, we were climbing Anyemaqen. I was the climbing leader. We had planned to depart before dawn, but didn't actually leave until 7 a.m. We summited around 3 or 4 p.m., so we had to descend in the dark. There's an ice wall on Anyemaqen where you must descend before climbing back up. On the return, around 9 or 10 p.m., we were all hanging on fixed ropes when suddenly a massive dark cloud appeared in the distance, accompanied by thunder and the faint flicker of electrical sparks moving toward us.

We were terrified — you could feel the oppressive force. If that cloud had engulfed us, the consequences would have been unthinkable. The only thing I could do was silently pray to Anyemaqen for protection. Fortunately, our luck held. The cloud drew closer and closer; we could even feel raindrops when suddenly it shifted in the opposite direction. It felt like extraordinary luck. Otherwise, we couldn't have imagined what would have happened next. This experience deeply impressed upon me the importance of time management in climbing.

5Y Tavern: You've also climbed many unclimbed peaks, where unknown risks are even greater. Don't you feel afraid or fearful during the process?

Xinyue Cao: I'm quite afraid. I have lots of fears. I often joke with people that I'm actually a huge coward. Many times I can climb because my abilities sufficiently cover the demands. And the more you climb, the more cautious you become — none of us are actually that reckless. When we do these things, they may look brave from the outside. There are two dimensions: first, you're confident enough that you believe you'll be fine; second, if something actually goes wrong, do you have a way to respond? You need to be constantly aware of exactly what situation you're in.

5Y Tavern: I find climbing fascinating because it actively shapes personality. At any stage, you'll find parts of yourself that are currently lacking, then gradually break through — whether it's fear of the unknown, laziness that needs training, or excessive recklessness that needs tempering. There's always some part of yourself that needs sculpting. Over your many years of climbing, have you noticed changes in your personality? What has climbing shaped in you?

Xinyue Cao: I used to be relatively lazy, not particularly inclined to challenge myself, quick to retreat. Climbing gave me a kind of refusal to accept defeat — a drive to push through, not allowing myself to back down easily. I can now challenge many things that frighten me, provided the risks are controllable. I have that desire to challenge. I used to fear failure or feel frustrated by setbacks. Now I feel it's fine either way.

5Y Tavern: Regarding "why do people climb mountains," the classic answer is mountaineer George Mallory's response when asked why he wanted to climb Everest: "Because it's there." This became a frequently quoted line, but the real reasons surely go beyond that. What else is there?

Xinyue Cao: I think in earlier eras, mountaineering also involved some pursuit of fame and glory, because first ascents were at stake. But now, people who love this — I think they're quite pure in wanting to solve problems through their own capabilities. That gives you tremendous satisfaction, and some routes are simply beautiful when completed.

5Y Tavern: I've also seen people say this pursuit is deeply honest — you need extremely clear and honest awareness of yourself and your surroundings, with no room for pretense. This purity, this extremity, is also very attractive.

Xinyue Cao: Because this is something that requires沉淀 [accumulation/precipitation]. The more you engage in high-risk activities, the more you need to build up foundational abilities and techniques. Even if someone approaches it with a get-rich-quick mentality, either they'll discover this can't be rushed and switch to another pursuit, or they'll endanger themselves through excessive aggressiveness and find they can't sustain it. In the end, those who keep going are constantly accumulating and沉淀.

Giveaways

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