Three Hours Drinking with Three Female Founders | 5Y Tavern Vol. 3
After a few rounds of drinks, what did they talk about?
5Y Capital Pub Notes
"Want a drink?"
Hearing the question, Wan Min blurted out: "I can't drink, but I can really eat."
This edition of the 5Y Capital Pub was held on Yuyuan Road in Shanghai, at 7 p.m. on a Saturday. Three female founders — Gongzhu from StartDT, Wan Min from BestSign, and Xiao Fangfang from UHUILIN — arrived one after another.
Xiao Fangfang said that when she previously met with investors, one of them brought a bottle of wine, probably wanting to "hear some honest talk." The result: "I passed out after a few drinks and couldn't answer anything."
When Gongzhu arrived at the 5Y Capital Pub, she simply said, "Let's get some drinks."
When female founders sit together, with no prepared agenda whatsoever, the similarities and resonances in their experiences naturally lead to raising glasses and joyful conversation.
They come from different fields and have completely different personalities. Xiao Fangfang describes herself as "tough on the outside, tough on the inside" — and you can sense her fierceness in every detail. Liu Ying (Gongzhu) says she grew up as the "perfect child" following the path her parents set, and entrepreneurship is like a belated act of rebellion. Wan Min has something of an artistic temperament — when she laughs while speaking, you feel her purity and candor; when discussing serious topics, she's decisively sharp.
Yet in many ways they're remarkably alike. Most directly: when their companies face the hardest challenges, it all lands on them.
In truth, when anyone decides to start a company, they must face the fear of exploring uncharted territory, swallow hardships and grievances, and lead their team through one tough battle after another. They happen to be women, which may mean bearing more, running faster, and having greater courage.
Over drinks, they shared some candid experiences and stories. Their ease, fearlessness, and immeasurable energy were infectious.
We've compiled some of their conversation, hoping their three stories might inspire you too :)
Guests at this edition of the 5Y Capital Pub:
Gongzhu (Liu Ying), Co-founder of StartDT
Wan Min, Founder of BestSign
Xiao Fangfang, Founder of UHUILIN
You Dan (Cloris), 5Y Capital
What they talked about:
Xiao Fangfang: I'm not soft outside and tough inside — I'm tough outside and tough inside.
Gongzhu: Entrepreneurship is the biggest act of rebellion in my life.
Wan Min: Doing what you love doesn't require willpower.
Not soft outside and tough inside — tough outside and tough inside.
Xiao Fangfang, Founder of UHUILIN
Fisher (5Y Capital) once asked me what crazy things I'd done. I said I wanted to scuba dive, but I couldn't swim. If you didn't pass the swimming test, you'd be rejected. So I just jumped straight into the water.
I lasted two minutes before being rescued. They asked why I dared to jump when I couldn't swim. I said I just wanted to scuba dive. After that, word spread through our school that there was this crazy woman.
I really like investors who ask thoughtful, high-quality questions — especially negative ones. When I met with 5Y Capital, Fisher kept challenging me with critical questions. I loved that approach. I don't really need people telling me I'm doing great; it's not very useful. Better to point out some flaws so I can fix them.
I used to work at Amazon. Part of that job involved standing in a conference room while 25 people pointed out problems, and you'd frantically explain why things were that way. I was one of the very few who genuinely enjoyed that. I'm also "tough outside and tough inside" — I like things full of challenge. If it's too smooth, I actually feel empty. When I was choosing a PhD advisor, I initially picked him because I completely couldn't understand his work. I reached out and said I wanted to be his student.
I "passively" ended up on the entrepreneurial path. My PhD advisor took on a domestic project, and I was responsible for it. The original plan was to eventually hand it off to a domestic team. At the time, I was working at Amazon during the day and staying up nights working on the China project for a year and a half. Later, when looking for a team to transfer it to, two different teams couldn't take it on. The China side said I could just start a company.
I did market research. In 2016, the supply and demand for AI intelligent decision-making was completely imbalanced — there was so much we could do. I also thought: Amazon won't be affected if I leave, but if domestic clients lose this service, they could face some pretty thorny problems.
When I first tried to raise funding, they asked if I had competitors in China. I said no, and got thrown out like a fraud. Because many people's first reaction was: how could there possibly be no competitors? Either you're lying, or you don't understand the market. But there genuinely weren't any at the time — the top three companies in this space were all founded that same year.
At the very beginning, it was just me. The first fund I talked to asked: you're just one person? I said yes, but I have a multi-million contract in hand. They said we still don't invest in one-person companies. Later I went to build a team. I talked to each early partner for a long time. It's been over five years now, and we're all still here.
Our company's partners all have a pretty direct, no-nonsense style. Everyone speaks very candidly — outsiders might think we're arguing. Later we decided to rebrand this weakness as a strength: "Because we trust each other, we keep it simple." When one employee left, they wrote a thank-you note saying that at this company, you just need to do good work. You don't have to guess what your superiors are thinking, and there's no complicated politics — everyone is straightforward.
A friend once told me a theory: You need to detach your emotions and adopt a God's-eye view to look at all your own behaviors and how others interact with you. If you're the one being communicated with, you can absorb others' suggestions without being so emotional. If you're the one initiating communication, you can sense why the other person is feeling a certain way and adjust your approach accordingly.
I think people need to strip away emotion to see problems clearly. I skip over all the surface expressions and look at people's motivations. If the motivation is good, you can translate their way of expressing it. In our company, whenever there's something difficult or thorny, they send me in. They call it "the tough jobs go to Fangfang."
Since starting the company, I've encountered many things. My understanding of the world has become clearer, so I've become more decisive. But being decisive also requires having a heart that respects others and understands their situations. I call this: kind at heart, sharp in action. Of course, I'm also working on being gentler — simple, but not rough.
Pub Bonus
I understand that mindset. When you're an entrepreneur, you sometimes really hope someone will come provoke you, because you're afraid you won't know [what you're missing].
But I think I need localized stimulation, not prolonged stimulation. Your level is too high.
Gongzhu
Is there anything in the world that scares you?
5Y Capital
Fangfang
I'm afraid of dogs. To overcome this, I got a dog.
Got a dog because you're afraid of dogs... Respect.
5Y Capital
You were born to be an entrepreneur. Working for someone else would probably be torture for you.
Gongzhu
Fangfang
I could tolerate working for someone else, but my boss probably couldn't tolerate me : )
Starting a company was the biggest act of rebellion in my life.
Gongzhu, Co-founder of StartDT
Entrepreneurship was probably the biggest rebellion of my life.
I grew up following my parents' blueprint — school, career, marriage, kids. I was the proverbial "good kid," a standard template. When I left Alibaba to start my own company, my parents reacted as if "the straight-A student had suddenly failed a test."
For the first three years, I didn't even go home for Chinese New Year. If I did, they'd tell me to quit while I still could. Things have improved slightly. My dad somehow found out I made it onto some female entrepreneurs list and said, "Looks like you're doing okay now" (laughs). My husband has always been supportive, though. He knew I still had a fire inside that had been suppressed all those years. Maybe I was stifled in my youth — after turning thirty, I wanted to live for myself and do something I genuinely loved.
I never imagined I'd become an entrepreneur. After college, I spent over a decade at IBM. Reading about Thomas Watson Sr., reading Who Says Elephants Can't Dance? — I was drawn to a company with a century of history and culture. When I joined through campus recruiting, I assumed I'd work there for life. But just when you're ready to make your mark, you realize IBM is faltering in China. Operations were being pulled out, people were being laid off. Being on a sinking ship takes a toll on your psyche.
Then I went to Alibaba. I got lucky — public cloud was skyrocketing, every industry was migrating to the cloud, growth was exponential. In that kind of high-velocity trend, everything feels great. Everyone's eyes were lit up.
My time at Alibaba was relatively short, but it profoundly changed my life. It pulled me out of a state where I was unusually pessimistic for my age, where I thought I'd already peaked professionally. I discovered there was another way to exist, that life held so many more possibilities. That's also when I met Xingzai, and later left with him to found StartDT.
There's a stereotype that people who follow the conventional path don't accomplish extraordinary things. I was molded by that conventional path. I'm rational — maybe because I'm a Taurus — I calculate, I run ten scenarios in my head before acting. It might not look reckless, but on the flip side, it's thoroughly precise. What I want to say is: ordinary people can do extraordinary things.
Since starting the company, I've had to rebuild myself psychologically many times over. I've seen sides of human nature I never knew existed. My understanding of the world is completely different from before I started this journey. When I first began, a friend told me: "Welcome to the real world."
In the early days, there was still some leisure time — the business hadn't taken off yet, the team was small, we could even take group outings. Once things got on track and we hit the accelerator, there was no free time at all. I love fishing. I've talked shop with many avid anglers who consider me knowledgeable, but in reality I have zero time to actually fish now — I'm purely a theoretical expert.
I have a daughter who's seven now. I started my company when she was two. One day I looked at her and thought, how did this kid get so big so fast? Often when I get home she's already asleep. I sit by her bed and space out for a moment, feel my energy recharge, then go back to work.
Entrepreneurship is genuinely hard. Sometimes I hope my daughter won't have to suffer like this. One day I asked her, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" I was hoping she'd say something artistic — piano, maybe, or sports, or a professor. Instead she said, "I want to be a boss like Mommy."
Tavern Bonus
You've set a wonderful example for your daughter. For a girl, absorbing that through osmosis plants a seed — I want to be self-reliant, I want to be independent, I want to be excellent like Mom. I think that's beautiful.
Wan Min
Gongzhu
My mom says I run my home like a company. We make plans, set OKRs, and everyone executes. We even do retrospectives at night. The first word my daughter learned was "retrospective."
Why did you choose "Princess" as your nickname?
5Y Capital
Gongzhu
Compensating for what's lacking — they wanted me to be more feminine. I'm pretty tough by nature. When there's a hard battle to fight, I lead the charge.
Gongzhu recharges by sitting at her daughter's bedside. What are your stress relief methods?
Cloris
I just need sleep. A full night's rest and I'm recharged.
Wan Min
I occasionally play immersive murder mystery games. Once there was a mildly horror-themed one — I got so scared I grabbed a complete stranger next to me. Very awkward afterward.
Fangfang
You don't need willpower
for things you love.
Wan Min, Founder of BestSign
I know I'm somewhat controversial among certain investors because I don't like giving textbook answers. FAs often remind me, can't you just answer like other founders do, by the book? But I still choose to tell the truth.
Some investors ask what I'd do after achieving success. I say I've never thought about leaving this work. I'm not deliberately chasing some notion of success or excellence — I'm just following my nature and doing what I love.
I've always been drawn to business. Growing up, I read everything I could get my hands on — all kinds of books, really — and business just captivated me. By middle school, I already knew I wanted to start my own company someday. In college, I read a book that said if you want to build something of your own, you should first go work at a multinational to learn the ropes. So that's exactly what I did after graduation.
During my first year in Hangzhou after leaving my corporate job, my parents still didn't know I was starting a company. I told them I'd simply switched jobs — one thought I'd joined Alibaba, the other thought I'd gone to Microsoft. Then I entered a startup competition, and my childhood friend shared it on her Moments. Her mother saw it and told my mother: "Do you know what your daughter is actually doing?" When my mom called that day, her tone was almost conspiratorial and amused: "Wan Min, I know you're running your own business now." My father's first reaction warmed me — he said, "You must have gone through a lot. Are you short on money? I'll send you some. Why didn't you tell me sooner?" I told him it was fine, that I'd already raised funding.
They probably imagined I was struggling. But I've been happy the whole time. Doing what you love doesn't require willpower. Ask me to go running every morning and I wouldn't last three days. But here we are in year eight of this startup, and I'm still genuinely enjoying it.
I'm also not prone to anxiety. A friend once told me, out of concern, that I didn't need to be so strong all the time. I replied that I wasn't putting on an act — this is just how I'm wired. Everyone's constitution is different. The same circumstances that rattle others barely register with me. I love the phrase "What's the panic?" So many things simply don't warrant the distress.
I see the same quality in Levi (Liu Kai at 5Y Capital). He's steady and calm, never pressuring you because of market fluctuations. Every company goes through ups and downs. In difficult times, Levi's own composure, his trust and support for portfolio companies — that's incredibly precious for founders. He's immune to outside noise because he truly understands the enterprise services business.
Over the years of entrepreneurship, I've probably gotten better at decisive action. "Bodhisattva heart, executioner's hand" — I used to be terrible at this and stepped into plenty of pitfalls. Now I'm increasingly resolute.
When I first went out to raise funding, a founding partner at one fund told me directly that he didn't invest in female founders. I thought, if you don't invest in women, why did you have me come in? At the time, I didn't have the confidence to push back — and I actually blushed, uselessly, feeling my ears and face suddenly burn. Later I analyzed why I'd blushed. Maybe I felt I'd let my team down, failing to secure funding for this reason.
If a woman wanted to start a company today, I'd want her to ignore the arrogance and prejudice, to tune out the voices saying she can't do it. In The Big Bang Theory, when Amy wins the Nobel Prize, her speech made me cry. She said: "To all the young girls out there who dream about science as a career: go for it. It is the greatest job in the world. And if anybody tells you you can't, don't listen."
That's what I want to say too. I genuinely hope to see more and more exceptional women emerge. The world is wonderfully diverse — not everyone needs to live the same way. It's this diversity that makes society come alive.
Tavern Easter Egg
I haven't really heard people say I couldn't do it. But some do say, even if you succeed, what's the point? Better to settle down, get married, have kids — that's practical.
Fangfang
Wan Min
You could say — no company, no regrets in life, right? Haha.
Didn't they discuss this in B for Busy? "That's all made up. I could say that too. 'A woman who hasn't dumped a hundred men in her life is incomplete.' 'A woman who hasn't earned a million in her life is incomplete.' 'A woman who hasn't lived for herself is incomplete.'"
I really envy Wan Min's state of mind. I'm just more prone to anxiety — when something comes up, I want to handle it immediately, to do it perfectly. Though I've picked up some techniques now to keep it in check.
Gongzhu
Wan Min
Many successful people are driven by anxiety or fear. People like us probably just aren't ambitious enough, not pursuing excellence ^_^
You may not be pursuing excellence, but excellence is pursuing you.
Fangfang
We know Wan Min has a reading group with Sang Wenfeng from Sensors Data and Liu Qi from PingCAP.
Cloris
Wan Min
We're classmates. Since we all do B2B, we started meeting regularly to read and discuss together. We'd pick topics and explore them together — sometimes during World Cup season we'd gather around that too. I can show you our themes from each session.
Let me read them out for you.
Exploring scientific methodology, fundamental principles of human sociology, how to tell a compelling fundraising story, N questions about marketing and sales strategy, game theory and enterprise management, development strategy under the new economic normal, and the CCP's First Congress and Jinggangshan entrepreneurship... quite the range.
Cloris
Wan Min
Yeah, I love reading about politics, economics, military affairs, and the humanities too — I'll read pretty much anything. We also did a session on the First Congress and Jinggangshan entrepreneurship at South Lake. Since COVID, we've sometimes met online.
I want to join your group too.
Fangfang
5Y Capital
It's already 10 p.m.… Let's have one last farewell drink, then take a group photo :)
Three, two, one… Wait, the lighting seems a bit dim. We'll retouch it for everyone.
All fixed :)
5Y Tavern
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