Li Bin: The World of "3Uongo" Behind the Scenes

For this episode of Signal and Noise, we're joined by Li Bin, founder of Home Butler (好慷在家), to talk about his 20-year entrepreneurial journey and 15 years of lessons running the company.

From "creating the 86 International Housekeeping Day just to give employees time off" to a future vision of "six-figure salaries, millions employed, tens of millions of households served"; from the personal code of "river-and-lake spirit" to the management philosophy of "bankruptcy drills," Li Bin speaks in almost plain language, revealing the authentic convictions of a service-industry entrepreneur and the underlying source of a company's vitality.

This is a deep conversation about professional dignity, systems of trust, and organic growth.

If you're also persisting in something that doesn't look like it's going to succeed quickly, you might want to hear Li Bin's rhythm and understand the burning "river-and-lake heart" behind his approach to entrepreneurship.

If you have any reflections you'd like to share, feel free to leave a comment.

Below is an excerpt from our conversation, covering the parts we found most thought-provoking, presented here in article form.

Enjoy

Oasis Capital: What year is this for the Housekeeping Day (the "86 International Housekeeping Day")?

Li Bin: Year 14.

Oasis Capital: And how many years has Home Butler been around?

Li Bin: 15 years.

Oasis Capital: 15 years, haha. What were you thinking? As a housekeeping startup, you launched an "International Housekeeping Day" in your second year?

Li Bin: The origin was actually very simple. When I first entered this industry, housekeepers had no days off — they worked 365 days a year. After we got into the business, we were founded in 2010, and by the second half of 2011 we said we need to give them time off. If there's no time off, no young people will want to join, because it's not a profession. There's never been a profession where you can't rest — even the Premier gets vacation days.

The employee day came about because our original company was tiny — a street-front shop, upstairs and downstairs maybe 200-plus square meters. We'd eat lunch there, and this kid was whining to his mom, asking when they could go play, when she wouldn't have to work. The employee joked: "See that guy? That's the boss. Go ask the boss for time off. If he's willing, I'll take you to play." She didn't really mean it, but I took it seriously.

So to this day we still allow people to bring their kids to work. It's for the same reason — these are migrant workers who've come to the city, letting them bring their children to have some fun. Nothing more, just that idea.

Oasis Capital: (After your second entrepreneurial venture ended) Did you ever conclude that maybe you're just not cut out for entrepreneurship, that you should go work for someone else?

Li Bin: No, never. Never gave up. Even today I feel like I'm a born entrepreneur.

Oasis Capital: Why? When did you realize you're a born entrepreneur?

Li Bin: That was early. In my first year of working for someone else, I told myself I'd work for maybe a year or two, then go start my own thing. So when I went to interviews and they asked what salary I wanted, I'd say: "You guys decide, but the most important thing is that I can learn."

So maybe when a person positions themselves a certain way, when you figure out your identity, many things become different. So I really did think seriously, study hard, write good code, master the technology, and take on whatever was hardest. After all, the days of being able to work for someone else were numbered, so I was very open-minded about everything.

For example, when I was working for someone else, I'd often hold myself to the standard of a boss — because I was going to start my own company. So I'd think: if I were the boss, how would I handle this? What would I want my employees to be like? Then I'd become that person.

Oasis Capital: When did this "river-and-lake spirit" of yours form? What influenced you, what gave you this quality?

Li Bin: First, when you hear these two words, what comes to mind? Looking at it spatially, what does it resemble? They say where there are people there's a river and lake — actually the ocean environment is very similar to rivers and lakes, to dock environments. River-and-lake spirit emerges most easily there, including here in Shanghai where we are.

So the spirit of the sea itself is an expression of river-and-lake spirit, even grander.

For example, have you ever been rescued at sea? When you've been rescued, you know that on the ocean, humans are utterly insignificant. You need to be helped, and when you have the ability, you help others too. Last night I went running, a typhoon was coming, the wind was strong, the rain heavy. I thought: look, we grew up coexisting with typhoons. Really, if it doesn't let you live, you won't live — doesn't matter how capable you are. I received this education from childhood: everything depends on heaven.

So when you look today at "Tao, Heaven, Earth, Commander, Law" (the five elements for analyzing victory in war from The Art of War*)*, this logic is actually quite interesting. People today increasingly think they're so capable, like they can change heaven and earth. But in fact, returning to that most instinctual level, it's almost impossible. So what is this so-called river and lake really about? It's actually about trust.

Oasis Capital: But was it because your father was this kind of person, or what gave you this river-and-lake sensibility in that era?

Li Bin: I think family is one aspect, but environment is a bigger (factor).

Oasis Capital: What environment influenced you?

Li Bin: Actually I think keeping your word is very common in the southeast coast — it's almost a universal value. So look at the most hated types of people: those without credit rank first, then gamblers. Think about it — they're more hated than gamblers. There was someone in our village who was very untrustworthy, and he was forced to leave.

Oasis Capital: So basically, trust became a kind of bond between people in the village. In that environment, if someone didn't have this, they'd be expelled by the ecosystem. But did you realize this later, or did you absorb it from childhood, feel it intuitively?

Li Bin: Right, imperceptibly. Having no sense of shame about breaking trust — that's terrible.

Oasis Capital: How many housekeepers does Home Butler manage now?

Li Bin: Ten to twenty thousand.

Oasis Capital: Ten to twenty thousand. So what's your management philosophy? Or your method? What qualifies you to manage so many people?

Li Bin: We think the concepts of productive forces and relations of production are very important. For example, what are relations of production? In economics, there are three aspects to describing relations of production. First, who owns the means of production. Second, status in the production process — the status of laborers. Third, distribution in the production process.

This sounds very macro, but it's actually easy to understand. Take DiDi for example. Who owns the means of production? Whose car is it? Simply put, if you hire a driver and the car is his, the car will definitely be clean, definitely won't break down — you don't need to manage it. If you haven't given ownership of the means of production to him, if the car is bought by you the boss, people's reverence will always be somewhat different, because their responsibility is different.

Second is status in the production process — this status question is very important. What identity do you have while doing this work? Why does management theory emphasize so much about motivating people? Like at Haidilao, all the store managers feel like they're the boss — this is very important. The so-called "first person" perspective, or when people treat the company's business as their own, even more important than their own affairs — this is about whether you've given them this status in the production process.

Then third is distribution in the production process — this simply presents as wages, bonuses, benefits, these issues. In fact, reform of relations of production, in all past enterprise management, has been most applied and developed only in this third area, the matter of paying wages. And there are still many people who can't even do wages well. I believe if you tell me how your company pays wages, I can roughly calculate your cost structure.

Now look at the internet — it has one incredibly powerful invention: stock options. The arrival of options laid a very important additional logic for distribution in relations of production. For example, who owns the options? It's actually who owns the means of production. So look at Xiaogang Village, look at the household responsibility system — all of it is reform of relations of production. So continuously optimizing relations of production is very classic in management theory.

Does the state teach us how to cultivate the land? How to grow this bean, how to grow mung beans, how to grow peanuts? No. It tells you: the land is distributed to you, this land is yours, done. The earliest labor method for "this land is mine" was the "work-point commune system" (during the People's Commune period, 1958 to early 1980s, a labor measurement and distribution system where commune members' work time "work points" were recorded to distribute grain and income). One day it was suddenly divided up, and the next day there were already people going to carry water at 4 a.m. So you see economics is very useful — it has a very advanced relationship with management theory. Because no matter how much management theory talks, if you follow Drucker's formulation, it boils down to two lines: one, the essence of management is to improve efficiency; two, the ultimate pursuit of management is to not need management. From this perspective, reform and opening up was incredibly powerful.

Oasis Capital: What are these bankruptcy drills you mentioned?

Li Bin: Bankruptcy drills are something we consider very important, a very important part of Home Butler's management. Actually, most of my time is spent thinking about when our company will go bankrupt. So it's like, I might be the founder, but in fact I'm also not the founder. From the perspective of "who built the ship sailing on the sea," I'm really just a representative.

Oasis Capital: The industry shaped it.

Li Bin: Exactly. Bankruptcy drills are the same. A company is strange — say we have ten to twenty thousand people now. But tell me, is everyone working hard thinking about how to develop the company well? Then who thinks about when this company will go bankrupt? That person should be me. So you see this is very similar to our seasonal rituals. I don't know what you feel going to sweep graves on Qingming Festival, or attending a funeral in your hometown. Maybe only in that moment do you slightly revere life. Otherwise, most people every day are in confused information, with no physical sense of life.

Until one day it happens, and they realize: wasn't this person my teacher? I used to think he was still young, how did he leave today? Wasn't this my childhood friend, how is he gone? So bankruptcy drills are constantly emphasizing that a company has a life — this is something very brave and good in our whole company, a hurdle all executives must pass.

Also, our company has a mission. When we put forward "six-figure salaries, millions employed, tens of millions of households" — especially that dimension of millions employed — we knew we might need to spend 30 years or even longer on this to accomplish it.

To reach millions of people, you must work hard for a very long time to prevent yourself from going astray, to prevent your own bankruptcy.

Oasis Capital: What do you drill?

Li Bin: Mental understanding, and also case-based instruction.

Every year I also invite some people — especially if a friend has just gone bankrupt, I've had more cases these past few years; harder to find in earlier years, much easier now. These people are mainly because they're about to start over, so as a confidential exchange it's actually quite good.

Oasis Capital: For an entrepreneur just starting out, you tell them to pay attention to money, right? But what does "paying attention to money" mean?

Li Bin: I saw Yongping Duan's (段永平) understanding of this recently, and I thought he put it especially well. For example, he invests in companies looking at three things: good business model, good corporate culture, and good price. If you don't understand business models, probably just set up a stall and try doing business, and you'll know how important business models are. If your company has 5 or more people, you know how important culture is — I can deeply appreciate some of this.

What we were just saying about managing money is actually about managing finances. Your financial model and your business model, your product serves your business model, your marketing serves your product. So before, we sometimes overemphasized marketing — if you don't even make your product well, what's the use of marketing? Sometimes you don't care about your business model, you just keep caring about products. In fact, it's not that no one makes good products, but because pricing, cost structure, and supplier relationships weren't handled well, they still failed in the end, still didn't succeed.

It's not that there aren't good products — how far apart are our definitions of a good product? One is type difference, like something that sells well is called a good product. But my understanding of a good product today is: what supports the sustainable development of the business model is the good product. It really can keep making money for you, not just get sold.

Oasis Capital: Looking back, your understanding of many things probably wasn't deep enough at the time.

Li Bin: Not enough, not enough, completely not enough. A good business model is something you can see at a glance. I can calculate how much we sell each time, how much we make, and customers are happy to give us money. Like buying an Apple phone — they made money, we come out cheering "long live Apple," then you're truly unbeatable.

Oasis Capital: But in this AI era, what impact do you think it will have on the housekeeping industry as a whole? Whether as an organization or from an industry perspective, how do you see it?

Li Bin: I did talk about this at this year's "86" (International Housekeeping Day), did discuss it. But I started from our company's development — we had an APP in 2012, and after housekeepers finished cleaning at a client's home, they'd show the client that HTC phone for a signature. The client would say: "You guys are so advanced."

So what is our definition of AI? I think in the technology era there can be different terms — we've actually been embracing technology all along, and we believe technology has brought us enormous change. This year we did a robot vacuum test report, including two competitor companies came to look, and they felt our testing was better than theirs.

I'll mention two things. First, the increase in human productivity due to technological change is inevitable, something that cannot be ignored. Second, in the service industry, I believe human-machine collaboration is a better, more efficient solution. A simple example: take a robot vacuum. Compare today's robot vacuum to that earliest American robot vacuum from 30 years ago — how much has the function of sweeping one square meter increased? Actually not much. What have they added now? For example, because of infrastructure, like AI voice systems, things like that. Actually the ability to sweep that floor — either using the pad logic or the rotating disc logic — hasn't changed much fundamentally. So if you go back to the act of sweeping that tile, not much has changed.

Oasis Capital: Today's anxiety is what you call not having the right mindset — people are probably thinking about things they shouldn't think about. If you think about your needs, look for problems in your needs, find solutions, it should actually be quite joyful, and definitely the needs are only increasing.

Li Bin: That's just the first dimension. The second dimension is: why do people always say the word "competitors"? It's because you think too much of yourself.

For example, if I want to do investing today and I treat Oasis Capital as my investment competitor, wouldn't that trouble you? They were here before you came, and you treat them as a competitor — what kind of mentality is that?

You need to elevate your mindset. Simply put, in internet slang, open your格局 (perspective) — just think that you happen to be walking alongside a group of great people. Being able to walk alongside Oasis Capital, alongside Sequoia Capital, that's pretty good. If in this era you invest in an excellent company, at least you can say that in that era we were also beside it, that works too.

If you have this positioning, you'll definitely feel much more at ease. And this mentality is very beneficial, because it lets you return to your focus, rather than resenting these people. So like us, doing this for 15 years, I've never spent a single minute thinking about them (competitors), because I think it's better to leave time for myself.

Oasis Capital: It's not really about one person succeeding or failing in competition — it's that in practice, some people just leave.

Li Bin: Right. And everyone wants to win praise in the short term, like who has bigger market share. But when you put this on a 10-year, 20-year timeline, as long as there's enough time, the facts become increasingly objective.